The
following are excerpts of an interview with Noam Chomsky published in Issue 2
of Red & Black Revolution. RBR can be contacted at Red & Black
Revolution, PO Box 1528, Dublin 8, Ireland. The interview was conducted in May
1995 by Kevin Doyle.
RBR:First off, Noam, for quite
a time now you've been an advocate for the anarchist idea. Many people are
familiar with the introduction you wrote in 1970 to Daniel Guerin's Anarchism,
but more recently, for instance in the film Manufacturing Consent, you took the
opportunity to highlight again the potential of anarchism and the anarchist
idea. What is it that attracts you to anarchism?
CHOMSKY: I was attracted to
anarchism as a young teenager, as soon as I began to think about the world
beyond a pretty narrow range, and haven't seen much reason to revise those
early attitudes since. I think it only makes sense to seek out and identify
structures of authority, hierarchy, and domination in every aspect of life, and
to challenge them; unless a justification for them can be given, they are
illegitimate, and should be dismantled, to increase the scope of human freedom.
That includes political power, ownership and management, relations among men
and women, parents and children, our control over the fate of future
generations (the basic moral imperative behind the environmental movement, in
my view), and much else. Naturally this means a challenge to the huge
institutions of coercion and control: the state, the unaccountable private
tyrannies that control most of the domestic and international economy, and so
on. But not only these. That is what I have always understood to be the essence
of anarchism: the conviction that the burden of proof has to be placed on
authority, and that it should be dismantled if that burden cannot be met.
Sometimes the burden can be met. If I'm taking a walk with my grandchildren and
they dart out into a busy street, I will use not only authority but also
physical coercion to stop them. The act should be challenged, but I think it
can readily meet the challenge. And there are other cases; life is a complex
affair, we understand very little about humans and society, and grand
pronouncements are generally more a source of harm than of benefit. But the perspective
is a valid one, I think, and can lead us quite a long way.
Beyond
such generalities, we begin to look at cases, which is where the questions of
human interest and concern arise.
RBR: It's true to say that
your ideas and critique are now more widely known than ever before. It should
also be said that your views are widely respected. How do you think your
support for anarchism is received in this context? In particular, I'm
interested in the response you receive from people who are getting interested
in politics for the first time and who may, perhaps, have come across your
views. Are such people surprised by your support for anarchism? Are they
interested?
CHOMSKY: The general intellectual
culture, as you know, associates 'anarchism' with chaos, violence, bombs,
disruption, and so on. So people are often surprised when I speak positively of
anarchism and identify myself with leading traditions within it. But my
impression is that among the general public, the basic ideas seem reasonable
when the clouds are cleared away. Of course, when we turn to specific matters -
say, the nature of families, or how an economy would work in a society that is
more free and just - questions and controversy arise. But that is as it should
be. Physics can't really explain how water flows from the tap in your sink.
When we turn to vastly more complex questions of human significance,
understanding is very thin, and there is plenty of room for disagreement,
experimentation, both intellectual and real-life exploration of possibilities,
to help us learn more.
RBR: Perhaps, more than any
other idea, anarchism has suffered from the problem of misrepresentation.
Anarchism can mean many things to many people. Do you often find yourself
having to explain what it is that you mean by anarchism? Does the
misrepresentation of anarchism bother you?
CHOMSKY: All misrepresentation is
a nuisance. Much of it can be traced back to structures of power that have an
interest in preventing understanding, for pretty obvious reasons. It's well to
recall David Hume's Principles of Government. He expressed surprise that people
ever submitted to their rulers. He concluded that since "Force is always
on the side of the governed, the governors have nothing to support them but
opinion. 'Tis therefore, on opinion only that government is founded; and this
maxim extends to the most despotic and most military governments, as well as to
the most free and most popular." Hume was very astute - and incidentally,
hardly a libertarian by the standards of the day. He surely underestimates the
efficacy of force, but his observation seems to me basically correct, and
important, particularly in the more free societies, where the art of
controlling opinion is therefore far more refined. Misrepresentation and other
forms of befuddlement are a natural concomitant.
So
does misrepresentation bother me? Sure, but so does rotten weather. It will
exist as long as concentrations of power engender a kind of commissar class to
defend them. Since they are usually not very bright, or are bright enough to
know that they'd better avoid the arena of fact and argument, they'll turn to
misrepresentation, vilification, and other devices that are available to those
who know that they'll be protected by the various means available to the powerful.
We should understand why all this occurs, and unravel it as best we can. That's
part of the project of liberation - of ourselves and others, or more
reasonably, of people working together to achieve these aims.
Sounds
simple-minded, and it is. But I have yet to find much commentary on human life
and society that is not simple-minded, when absurdity and self-serving
posturing are cleared away. [...]
The Spanish Revolution
RBR: In the past, when you
have spoken about anarchism, you have often emphasised the example of the
Spanish Revolution. For you there would seem to be two aspects to this example.
On the one hand, the experience of the Spanish Revolution is, you say, a good
example of 'anarchism in action'. On the other, you have also stressed that the
Spanish revolution is a good example of what workers can achieve through their
own efforts using participatory democracy. Are these two aspects - anarchism in
action and participatory democracy - one and the same thing for you? Is
anarchism a philosophy for people's power?
CHOMSKY: I'm reluctant to use
fancy polysyllables like "philosophy" to refer to what seems ordinary
common sense. And I'm also uncomfortable with slogans. The achievements of
Spanish workers and peasants, before the revolution was crushed, were
impressive in many ways. The term 'participatory democracy' is a more recent
one, which developed in a different context, but there surely are points of
similarity. I'm sorry if this seems evasive. It is, but that's because I don't
think either the concept of anarchism or of participatory democracy is clear
enough to be able to answer the question whether they are the same.
RBR:
One of
the main achievements of the Spanish Revolution was the degree of grassroots
democracy established. In terms of people, it is estimated that over 3 million
were involved. Rural and urban production was managed by workers themselves. Is
it a coincidence to your mind that anarchists, known for their advocacy of
individual freedom, succeeded in this area of collective administration?
CHOMSKY: No coincidence at all.
The tendencies in anarchism that I've always found most persuasive seek a
highly organised society, integrating many different kinds of structures
(workplace, community, and manifold other forms of voluntary association), but
controlled by participants, not by those in a position to give orders (except,
again, when authority can be justified, as is sometimes the case, in specific
contingencies).
Democracy
RBR:
Anarchists
often expend a great deal of effort at building up grassroots democracy. Indeed
they are often accused of "taking democracy to extremes". Yet,
despite this, many anarchists would not readily identify democracy as a central
component of anarchist philosophy. Anarchists often describe their politics as
being about 'socialism' or being about 'the individual'- they are less likely
to say that anarchism is about democracy. Would you agree that democratic ideas
are a central feature of anarchism?
CHOMSKY: Criticism of 'democracy'
among anarchists has often been criticism of parliamentary democracy, as it has
arisen within societies with deeply repressive features. Take the US, which has
been as free as any, since its origins. American democracy was founded on the
principle, stressed by James Madison in the Constitutional Convention in 1787,
that the primary function of government is "to protect the minority of the
opulent from the majority." Thus he warned that in England, the only
quasi-democratic model of the day, if the general population were allowed a say
in public affairs, they would implement agrarian reform or other atrocities,
and that the American system must be carefully crafted to avoid such crimes
against "the rights of property," which must be defended (in fact,
must prevail). Parliamentary democracy within this framework does merit sharp
criticism by genuine libertarians, and I've left out many other features that
are hardly subtle - slavery, to mention just one, or the wage slavery that was
bitterly condemned by working people who had never heard of anarchism or
communism right through the 19th century, and beyond.
Leninism
RBR:The importance of
grassroots democracy to any meaningful change in society would seem to be self
evident. Yet the left has been ambiguous about this in the past. I'm speaking
generally, of social democracy, but also of Bolshevism - traditions on the left
that would seem to have more in common with elitist thinking than with strict
democratic practice. Lenin, to use a well-known example, was sceptical that workers
could develop anything more than "trade union consciousness"- by
which, I assume, he meant that workers could not see far beyond their immediate
predicament. Similarly, the Fabian socialist, Beatrice Webb, who was very
influential in the Labour Party in England, had the view that workers were only
interested in "horse racing odds"! Where does this elitism originate
and what is it doing on the left?
CHOMSKY:I'm afraid it's hard for
me to answer this. If the left is understood to include 'Bolshevism,' then I
would flatly dissociate myself from the left. Lenin was one of the greatest
enemies of socialism, in my opinion, for reasons I've discussed. The idea that
workers are only interested in horse-racing is an absurdity that cannot
withstand even a superficial look at labour history or the lively and
independent working class press that flourished in many places, including the
manufacturing towns of New England not many miles from where I'm writing - not
to speak of the inspiring record of the courageous struggles of persecuted and
oppressed people throughout history, until this very moment. Take the most
miserable corner of this hemisphere, Haiti, regarded by the European conquerors
as a paradise and the source of no small part of Europe's wealth, now
devastated, perhaps beyond recovery. In the past few years, under conditions so
miserable that few people in the rich countries can imagine them, peasants and
slum-dwellers constructed a popular democratic movement based on grassroots
organisations that surpasses just about anything I know of elsewhere; only
deeply committed commissars could fail to collapse with ridicule when they hear
the solemn pronouncements of American intellectuals and political leaders about
how the US has to teach Haitians the lessons of democracy. Their achievements
were so substantial and frightening to the powerful that they had to be
subjected to yet another dose of vicious terror, with considerably more US
support than is publicly acknowledged, and they still have not surrendered. Are
they interested only in horse-racing?
I'd
suggest some lines I've occasionally quoted from Rousseau: "when I see
multitudes of entirely naked savages scorn European voluptuousness and endure
hunger, fire, the sword, and death to preserve only their independence, I feel
that it does not behoove slaves to reason about freedom."
RBR:
Speaking
generally again, your own work - Deterring Democracy, Necessary Illusions, etc.
- has dealt consistently with the role and prevalence of elitist ideas in
societies such as our own. You have argued that within 'Western' (or
parliamentary) democracy there is a deep antagonism to any real role or input
from the mass of people, lest it threaten the uneven distribution in wealth
which favours the rich. Your work is quite convincing here, but, this aside,
some have been shocked by your assertions. For instance, you compare the
politics of President John F. Kennedy with Lenin, more or less equating the
two. This, I might add, has shocked supporters of both camps! Can you elaborate
a little on the validity of the comparison?
CHOMSKY: I haven't actually
"equated" the doctrines of the liberal intellectuals of the Kennedy
administration with Leninists, but I have noted striking points of similarity -
rather as predicted by Bakunin a century earlier in his perceptive commentary
on the "new class." For example, I quoted passages from McNamara on
the need to enhance managerial control if we are to be truly "free,"
and about how the "undermanagement" that is "the real threat to
democracy" is an assault against reason itself. Change a few words in
these passages, and we have standard Leninist doctrine. I've argued that the
roots are rather deep, in both cases. Without further clarification about what
people find "shocking," I can't comment further. The comparisons are
specific, and I think both proper and properly qualified. If not, that's an
error, and I'd be interested to be enlightened about it.
Marxism
RBR:Specifically, Leninism
refers to a form of marxism that developed with V.I. Lenin. Are you implicitly
distinguishing the works of Marx from the particular criticism you have of
Lenin when you use the term 'Leninism'? Do you see a continuity between Marx's
views and Lenin's later practices?
CHOMSKY:
Bakunin's
warnings about the "Red bureaucracy" that would institute "the
worst of all despotic governments" were long before Lenin, and were
directed against the followers of Mr. Marx. There were, in fact, followers of
many different kinds; Pannekoek, Luxembourg, Mattick and others are very far
from Lenin, and their views often converge with elements of
anarcho-syndicalism. Korsch and others wrote sympathetically of the anarchist
revolution in Spain, in fact. There are continuities from Marx to Lenin, but
there are also continuities to Marxists who were harshly critical of Lenin and
Bolshevism. Teodor Shanin's work in the past years on Marx's later attitudes
towards peasant revolution is also relevant here. I'm far from being a Marx
scholar, and wouldn't venture any serious judgement on which of these
continuities reflects the 'real Marx,' if there even can be an answer to that
question. [...]
RBR: From my understanding,
the core part of your overall view is informed by your concept of human nature.
In the past the idea of human nature was seen, perhaps, as something
regressive, even limiting. For instance, the unchanging aspect of human nature
is often used as an argument for why things can't be changed fundamentally in
the direction of anarchism. You take a different view? Why?
CHOMSKY: The core part of anyone's
point of view is some concept of human nature, however it may be remote from
awareness or lack articulation. At least, that is true of people who consider
themselves moral agents, not monsters. Monsters aside, whether a person who
advocates reform or revolution, or stability or return to earlier stages, or
simply cultivating one's own garden, takes stand on the grounds that it is
'good for people.' But that judgement is based on some conception of human
nature, which a reasonable person will try to make as clear as possible, if
only so that it can be evaluated. So in this respect I'm no different from
anyone else.
You're
right that human nature has been seen as something 'regressive,' but that must
be the result of profound confusion. Is my granddaughter no different from a
rock, a salamander, a chicken, a monkey? A person who dismisses this absurdity
as absurd recognises that there is a distinctive human nature. We are left only
with the question of what it is - a highly nontrivial and fascinating question,
with enormous scientific interest and human significance. We know a fair amount
about certain aspects of it - not those of major human significance. Beyond
that, we are left with our hopes and wishes, intuitions and speculations.
There
is nothing "regressive" about the fact that a human embryo is so
constrained that it does not grow wings, or that its visual system cannot
function in the manner of an insect, or that it lacks the homing instinct of
pigeons. The same factors that constrain the organism's development also enable
it to attain a rich, complex, and highly articulated structure, similar in
fundamental ways to conspecifics, with rich and remarkable capacities. An
organism that lacked such determinative intrinsic structure, which of course
radically limits the paths of development, would be some kind of amoeboid
creature, to be pitied (even if it could survive somehow). The scope and limits
of development are logically related.
Take
language, one of the few distinctive human capacities about which much is
known. We have very strong reasons to believe that all possible human languages
are very similar; a Martian scientist observing humans might conclude that
there is just a single language, with minor variants. The reason is that the
particular aspect of human nature that underlies the growth of language allows
very restricted options. Is this limiting? Of course. Is it liberating? Also of
course. It is these very restrictions that make it possible for a rich and
intricate system of expression of thought to develop in similar ways on the
basis of very rudimentary, scattered, and varied experience.
What
about the matter of biologically-determined human differences? That these exist
is surely true, and a cause for joy, not fear or regret. Life among clones
would not be worth living, and a sane person will only rejoice that others have
abilities that they do not share. That should be elementary. What is commonly
believed about these matters is strange indeed, in my opinion.
Is
human nature, whatever it is, conducive to the development of anarchist forms
of life or a barrier to them? We do not know enough to answer, one way or the
other. These are matters for experimentation and discovery, not empty
pronouncements.
The future
RBR:To begin finishing off,
I'd like to ask you briefly about some current issues on the left. I don't know
if the situation is similar in the USA but here, with the fall of the Soviet
Union, a certain demoralisation has set in on the left. It isn't so much that
people were dear supporters of what existed in the Soviet Union, but rather
it's a general feeling that with the demise of the Soviet Union the idea of socialism
has also been dragged down. Have you come across this type of demoralisation?
What's your response to it?
CHOMSKY: My response to the end of
Soviet tyranny was similar to my reaction to the defeat of Hitler and
Mussolini. In all cases, it is a victory for the human spirit. It should have
been particularly welcome to socialists, since a great enemy of socialism had at
last collapsed. Like you, I was intrigued to see how people - including people
who had considered themselves anti-Stalinist and anti-Leninist - were
demoralised by the collapse of the tyranny. What it reveals is that they were
more deeply committed to Leninism than they believed.
There
are, however, other reasons to be concerned about the elimination of this
brutal and tyrannical system, which was as much "socialist" as it was
"democratic" (recall that it claimed to be both, and that the latter
claim was ridiculed in the West, while the former was eagerly accepted, as a
weapon against socialism - one of the many examples of the service of Western
intellectuals to power). One reason has to do with the nature of the Cold War.
In my view, it was in significant measure a special case of the 'North-South
conflict,' to use the current euphemism for Europe's conquest of much of the
world. Eastern Europe had been the original 'third world,' and the Cold War
from 1917 had no slight resemblance to the reaction of attempts by other parts
of the third world to pursue an independent course, though in this case
differences of scale gave the conflict a life of its own. For this reason, it
was only reasonable to expect the region to return pretty much to its earlier
status: parts of the West, like the Czech Republic or Western Poland, could be
expected to rejoin it, while others revert to the traditional service role, the
ex-Nomenklatura becoming the standard third world elite (with the approval of
Western state-corporate power, which generally prefers them to alternatives).
That was not a pretty prospect, and it has led to immense suffering.
Another
reason for concern has to do with the matter of deterrence and non-alignment.
Grotesque as the Soviet empire was, its very existence offered a certain space
for non-alignment, and for perfectly cynical reasons, it sometimes provided
assistance to victims of Western attack. Those options are gone, and the South
is suffering the consequences.
A
third reason has to do with what the business press calls "the pampered
Western workers" with their "luxurious lifestyles." With much of
Eastern Europe returning to the fold, owners and managers have powerful new
weapons against the working classes and the poor at home. GM and VW can not
only transfer production to Mexico and Brazil (or at least threaten to, which
often amounts to the same thing), but also to Poland and Hungary, where they
can find skilled and trained workers at a fraction of the cost. They are
gloating about it, understandably, given the guiding values.
We
can learn a lot about what the Cold War (or any other conflict) was about by
looking at who is cheering and who is unhappy after it ends. By that criterion,
the victors in the Cold War include Western elites and the ex-Nomenklatura, now
rich beyond their wildest dreams, and the losers include a substantial part of
the population of the East along with working people and the poor in the West,
as well as popular sectors in the South that have sought an independent path.
Such
ideas tend to arouse near hysteria among Western intellectuals, when they can
even perceive them, which is rare. That's easy to show. It's also
understandable. The observations are correct, and subversive of power and
privilege; hence hysteria.
In
general, the reactions of an honest person to the end of the Cold War will be
more complex than just pleasure over the collapse of a brutal tyranny, and
prevailing reactions are suffused with extreme hypocrisy, in my opinion.
Capitalism
RBR: In many ways the left
today finds itself back at its original starting point in the last century.
Like then, it now faces a form of capitalism that is in the ascendancy. There
would seem to be greater 'consensus' today, more than at any other time in
history, that capitalism is the only valid form of economic organisation
possible, this despite the fact that wealth inequality is widening. Against
this backdrop, one could argue that the left is unsure of how to go forward.
How do you look at the current period? Is it a question of 'back to basics'?
Should the effort now be towards bringing out the libertarian tradition in
socialism and towards stressing democratic ideas?
CHOMSKY: This is mostly
propaganda, in my opinion. What is called 'capitalism' is basically a system of
corporate mercantilism, with huge and largely unaccountable private tyrannies
exercising vast control over the economy, political systems, and social and
cultural life, operating in close co-operation with powerful states that
intervene massively in the domestic economy and international society. That is
dramatically true of the United States, contrary to much illusion. The rich and
privileged are no more willing to face market discipline than they have been in
the past, though they consider it just fine for the general population. Merely
to cite a few illustrations, the Reagan administration, which revelled in free
market rhetoric, also boasted to the business community that it was the most
protectionist in post-war US history - actually more than all others combined.
Newt Gingrich, who leads the current crusade, represents a superrich district
that receives more federal subsidies than any other suburban region in the
country, outside of the federal system itself. The 'conservatives' who are
calling for an end to school lunches for hungry children are also demanding an
increase in the budget for the Pentagon, which was established in the late
1940s in its current form because - as the business press was kind enough to
tell us - high tech industry cannot survive in a "pure, competitive,
unsubsidized, 'free enterprise' economy," and the government must be its
"saviour." Without the "saviour," Gingrich's constituents
would be poor working people (if they were lucky). There would be no computers,
electronics generally, aviation industry, metallurgy, automation, etc., etc.,
right down the list. Anarchists, of all people, should not be taken in by these
traditional frauds.
More
than ever, libertarian socialist ideas are relevant, and the population is very
much open to them. Despite a huge mass of corporate propaganda, outside of
educated circles, people still maintain pretty much their traditional
attitudes. In the US, for example, more than 80% of the population regard the
economic system as "inherently unfair" and the political system as a
fraud, which serves the "special interests," not "the
people." Overwhelming majorities think working people have too little
voice in public affairs (the same is true in England), that the government has
the responsibility of assisting people in need, that spending for education and
health should take precedence over budget-cutting and tax cuts, that the
current Republican proposals that are sailing through Congress benefit the rich
and harm the general population, and so on. Intellectuals may tell a different
story, but it's not all that difficult to find out the facts.
RBR: To a point anarchist
ideas have been vindicated by the collapse of the Soviet Union - the
predictions of Bakunin have proven to be correct. Do you think that anarchists
should take heart from this general development and from the perceptiveness of
Bakunin's analysis? Should anarchists look to the period ahead with greater
confidence in their ideas and history?
CHOMSKY: I think - at least hope -
that the answer is implicit in the above. I think the current era has ominous
portent, and signs of great hope. Which result ensues depends on what we make
of the opportunities.
[RC
NOTE: In previous versions of my webpage, this was obtained by link. That
link seems to be dead. Fortunately for me, I had saved the text to my disk.
After some consideration--including the reflection that Chomsky's ideas are far
too rarely disseminated outside a limited political circle--I decided to copy
it here. I have cut a few Q&A for space. As most anarchist publications are
not copyrighted, I think I'm safe, but if the copyright holder cares to contact
me I will proceed accordingly. The labor of HTML markup was originally
performed by Charles Munson.]